Category: Dating and Relationships
Hi,
I was a little hesitant to ask this question, but I can't ask anyone I know in real life for advice, so I figured there was no reason why I couldn't ask here.
I have a friend who I'm very close to. We tell each other everything. Sometimes, as I'm sure everyone who has a close friendship knows, you hear things you really dont want to. On Saturday night, he called me at 3 AM, drunk and elated, gloating that he's now a man because he went to a strip club for the first time. I was so shocked I couldn't speak.
You see, I morally object to places like that, and I'm not about to bore you all to death with a feminist rant. I don't care if you're male, female, hermaphadite, whatever--it is very, very wrong to exploit and get off on human misery and suffering. After all, what kind of instability would a person have to suffer from to want to be in that profession? What emotional and/or physical poverty would drive them into selling their bodies, night after night, to anyone with a hundred or so dollars to spend, whether they found you attractive or not? Or, if mental illness isn't the issue, how low would your self-esteem have to be, or how shallow and belligerent and reckless would you have to be to enjoy alleviating others' sexual frustrations?
Let me make one thing clear: I do not think stripping, or even prostitution, should be illegal. These women made a choice, and that should be respected. In my mind, the fact that prostitution is illegal is no different than prosecuting those who have attempted suicide. Both choices can be harmful, but not, in the literal sense, to anyone else. All I'm saying is that if other people choose to do it, fine. But they're not my friends. I literally feel sick when I think about the fact that, to me, my best friend is now a stranger. And he intends to become a psychologist. I don't approve of that either, simply because of how his personality is, but he swore up and down just a few months ago that he wouldn't become corrupt and obsessed with overmedicating people like most people in the mental health field are today. yet he has no problem at all with getting 5 lap dances, and contributing to the humiliation and degradation of a human soul. What am I supposed to do? I don't care if I sound melodramatic, and I know it's his life too, and he has a right to do whatever he wants with it, but I don't know if I can ever respect him again. I don't know if I can look him in the eye and not think about the filth on his dick. Ok, so technically it's not on there really, but it's the concept of it. And how can he justify not wanting to have sex until he's married, yet he can be so happy about doing what he did?
FireAndRain, I feel the same way you do about strip clubs; while I don't think stripping or prostitution should be illegal either because they're a choice that people make, it's something that I would never, ever even consider participating in. In fact I would rather be homeless and starve to death than ever choose that type of lifestyle. I agree that women who choose to live that way are either extremely poor, depressed or have low self esteem and confidence issues. It's sad because I know what it's like to suffer from depression and low self esteem problems, but there are other better, healthier ways to deal with them then selling one's body.
You've obviously never met any quality strippers. First, only the lower end ones actually call themselves strippers, and secondly, they have no issues. They arent metnally handicapped, or down on their luck, or poor, or have low self-esteem. In fact, many of my friends who are strippers have extremely high self-esteem.
As for your moral repulsion, I find it laughably childish to be perfectly frank with you. You honestly don't think that your boyfriend or girlfriend doesn't do the same thing?
Now, this is going to upset you, and you aren't going to agree with me, but maybe other people can use it as a springboard, so bear with me. If you have ever had sex, you have been put to the same degrodation that every stripper has, moreso since you actually went through with it. Remember how he called you beautiful beforehand? That was to get you to sleep with him. Remember the diamond necklace he bought you on your anniversary? The price was sex. Remember how he watched that movie that you really wanted to see, but you knew that he hated. Remember had you had sex afterwards to make up for it? Welcome to the wonderful world of romantic prostitution. You are trading a service for a service, and they are trading a service for cash.
Lets take a little less offensive of a situation though. You ever dressed prettily, put on some perfume, maybe some heels, nice earrings, then gone out with your boyfriend? Guess what, you're stripping without taking your clothes off. You are looking good so he'll notice you and find you appealing. Strippers remove clothes so they'll be noticed and found appealing. It got them cash, it got you complements and a free dinner.
You act so high and mighty in your sanctimonious superiority, looking down on girls who are comfortable with their bodies, and not ashamed of them. However, you don't stop for one second to realize that you do it too. You think that because you don't go home a few hundred dollars richer after you sleep with your boyfriend, that you're not prostituting yourself. Well, the next time you and your boyfriend get in a fight, and he stops calling you beautiful and buying you diamonds, tell me how many times you sleep together.
I'm absolutely sick of all these self-righteous people who look down on sex as if its some awful sin that should be whispered about behind your hands and never discussed. And I'm even more floored by people who do it and aren't virgins. I hate people who are willing to look down on girls who have sex when and with whom they want, or who show their bodies off to whom they want, for what reason they want, then those hating people will go home and show off the new lingerie they got for their boyfriends, or do something for their girlfriends; whatever. I hate that hippocrecy.
What is so evil and disgusting about sex? Why do you fear it so much? Why does it fill you with terror to think that it might actually be fun and profitable for someone? What, other than some antiquated religious text that most people don't understand, and no one alive has ever seen the original copies of, tell you that sex is such a sin? On what are these poorly formed, malicious, inaccurate and purely pointless so-called "moral" judgements coming based? You don't know these people, you don't know their lives, you don't know their minds.
I know more than one stripper, or dancer, who has put herself through college with her job. I know one that has done that, and bought a house, and a very nice car, with money left over. None of them have low self-esteem, or any of the problems you seem to think go hand and hand with thinking yourself sexy.
What do you have against girls who are willing to show off their bodies? Especially guys, who I can promise you, if a girl asked you if you wanted to see her naked for free, you'd go right ahead.
Girls, you're beautiful, revel in that, enjoy it, love it. Because if you don't cherish yourself for all you're worth, including your body, no one else will.
Now, just to show that I'm not picking on the posters above read, I will agree with one thing. Your friend who wants to wait until marriage to have sex, but will go to the strip club, is a moron. Though, I'd say that just about waiting until you're married, but that's just me.
I have mixed feelings about them. I used to feel just as the two of you do. Even thinking about people in strip clubs used to make me feel physically ill. However, if you're a single guy, or if, for whatever reason your girlfriend doesn't have a problem with it, and you're looking for a night of fun, I'd much rather you go to a strip club than rape some unsuspecting victim on the street. There are women who are strippers because they need money and can't get a job doing anything else. some of them are ashamed of what they do, and it seems most of them will get out of it as soon as possible, but not all of them are depressed.
I'll be honest. If you're trying to get more than a moment of pleasure from these women, you're going to the wrong place, but to me, there are many worse things men can do, and hell, women too, for that matter. I would hope someone wouldn't choose to end a friendship over someone going to one, but it's not my life. As for relationships, I would definitely end a relationship if I found out that my BF had been there and gotten a lap dance without talking it over with me first. Watching is something I can deal with, but participation, I cannot. Having said that, all this bullshit about "you're not a real man until you've been to a strip club" is just that, bull shit, in my opinion. Some people enjoy it; some don't. I really don't think you're any more or less of a person either way.
Cody, I was apparently writing my post more or less when you were. You definitely brought up a good point. Call me shallow if you want, but if you're in a relationship and not having sex, you don't have a BF or GF. You have a very good friend. And maybe you really do love them, but that doesn't mean you're in a relationship with them. I personally think that partners can give each other compliments because they honestly mean it. Do you honestly think the only thought going through a guy's head while he's on that night out with his girl is: "That bitch had better fucking sleep with me tonight!"? Of course sex is going to be on his mind, and probably her's, too, but love and sex should go hand in hand. they both are important, but neither should overshadow the other. If you just want the pleasure without the love and commitment, a strip club is the perfect place for you, and as Cody said, it's not corrupt. Raping someone is corrupt.
Oh of course he can mean it, who ever said he didn't mean it? Just because you sleep together afterwards, doesn't mean he didn't mean it.
But think of this, what is a relationship without complements, or nice gestures, or that kind of romantic stuff? Why, its nothing of course. Its two people who like each other, but never do anything to express it. So, you express it. The guy says, "My god you look beautiful tonight," and the girl smiles and blushes. Then he kisses her, because that goes with a complement, the kissing gets a bit heated, and soon her clothes are off and they're making love in the moonlight. he gave a complement, she gave sex. Its as simple as that.
But then, if you think about it, the people in the strip club mean it just as equally. You think a guy gives money to strippers he doesn't find attractive? Of course he doesn't. His 100 dollar bill, is the same as your boyfriends, "My god you look beautiful tonight". The only difference is your boyfriend gets laid, and the stripper gets paid. Look, they even rhyme.
I'm pretty much with Ocean on this. I don't think things stuch a strip clubs should be illegal. The women doing this are making a choice. But like you, F&R, I shudder to think of the circumstances that would drive those women to such a choice.
Like Ocean says, your friend's idea that he's a "real man," now because he went to a strip club is crap. If that's what he thinks a real man is, then I'd say he has his own major flaws in thinking, and I don't even want to know his views on how he'd treat a girlfriend at some point. But I don't think it's worth ending a friendship over. God knows I've had close friends make decisions that I've strongly disagreed with. I've done things and made decisions that have very much upset my friends, too. But we've never broken off our friendships as a result. We may have voiced our disagreements, even had arguements over each other's choices and/or actions, but not ended the friendship. But that's between you and him. I guess it depends on how close you are to each other, how freely you can discuss your feelings on the matter, and go from there.
I don't like going to strip clubs. I would never go to one or want to do that for money. I think if you strip for your girlfriend/boyfriend you do it because you love them and not just because you think they're sexy and have some extra cash to spend. Some of those dancers might just do it for fun but yeah some of them have kids so maybe they are doing the best they can.
Exactly. But if someone I don't find attractive tells me I'm beautiful, I'll thank them, but then I'll be on my way, not because I don't appreciate their compliment, but because I have no reason to want to give them sex. We're not dating, I don't find them attractive, so we have little chance of ever dating. So I basically got a free compliment. But do you think that'll be the last time that guy ever gives someone a free compliment? I get where you're coming from. the difference between that and a relationship cinario, and definitely the strip club cinario, is that the sexual favors in return are expected. I was just pointing out that not every compliment on beauty or other things of the like is going to get you any favors besides a "thank you". and a lot of people know that. that doesn't mean you don't throw them out there sometimes.
This is a hot topic, and I agree with much of what Silver has said.
Many women put themselves through college and graduate school doing this type of work. They become societies “model” citizen’s and are doctors, lawyers, Psychologist even. Some just pay the rent, buy the food, and earn a living.
To be a stripper you’d actually need a high self-esteem, not low. To get on a stage and take your clothes off you must feel and believe you are desirable, and enjoy doing your work, and showing off your natural assets.
Some of the best clubs serve quality meals, drinks, and have strict rules to what the customer/model association will be. Of course you have the clubs that aren’t as good, but this is in any business, so not limited to strip clubs.
Most girls see this as profession, and a way to earn a week’s pay for 4 hours of work if the customers are enjoying her service, and showing that enjoyment by the amount of the tips. Even in what is called a lap dance the customer can not touch the girl, so the service is eye candy, and if you have a sense of smell, the girls normally wear scents that help them with appeal. Baby oil is a popular product used.
If you decide to educate yourself, look at how strict the rules are for the girls that live at the Playboy Mansion. They are paid well, but are required to be in house by around 6, so they can eat dinner, rest, and get plenty of sleep, so they’ll be fresh looking at 6 AM when most professional shoots start. The work is demanding and Playboy doesn’t want the product looking drugged, drunk, tired, and worn out.
For the top girls college is paid for and they receive a salary. There is a house mother that chaperones them just like a girl’s school, so no wild sex happens. Some are even married women, believe it or not.
My personal experience is that I don’t get much enjoyment from the visuals, but taking a date to a nice club is a turn on for both. If you are dating a bi sexual woman she enjoys the show equally. Many clubs offer both male and female models, so that heterosexual couples or single male and females can come and enjoy the shows in the same place.
I do agree that your friend is not a “real man” now, and needs a “real man” to help him out some on this score, but I also think instead of getting mad with him maybe you should go to one of the clubs with him, and talk to some of the girls. You’ll find that they are real people, and most are girls that after work and this is work, want to go home, put on that ratty bath robe, wash the makeup off, and relax with a cup of tea.
The few I personally know are well adjusted people. They want to have kids, they like to go shopping, do regular girl things and they are easier going, because they are comfortable with themselves. They are daughters, sisters, some even parents, but most of all just like you.
Reeducate yourself on what exactly a stripper does, and doesn’t do. They, if they are only strippers, are not prostitutes but working girls, just like the girl that serves your meal at the restaurant you went to last, or the one you hear when you call to get information on a bill, or the dental assistant that cleaned your teeth last time you were at the dentist.
I dislike that idea that men need to go to these nasty places so they don’t “rape” anyone, because they can’t control themselves. Sex is pleasure, and love is love, but having sex with a girlfriend doesn’t equal love. Just because you are taking your clothes off and giving a man your body doesn’t mean he’s in love with you, or even wants to share his life with you forever. Sometimes he just likes you, or likes the way you look, or whatever and desires sexual relations with you, nothing more. Believe it, or not women feel the same way. I highly disbelieve that every woman that has sex, or gives her body to a man is in love with him. Don’t have sex with me, enjoy it, and then tell me “I love you” you don’t until you’ve spent much time with me and we’ve gone through a few issues and you saw me when I wasn’t as well put together, and you saw me when I was dirty, sweaty, and not in the best shape after a day’s work, and my money was low, and I just needed someone to unload my problems on, and you didn’t care. Then, and maybe, you love me.
I, too, am sickened by some of the misconceptions displayed on this topic.
for one thing, F&R and others who have said all strippers likely have a low self-esteem, are sadly mistaken.
while I'm sure there are some who do, just as there are people in various other professions who don't have a high self-esteem, people don't strip cause they're down on themselves.
as has been said, they strip cause they're proud of their bodies, and know others enjoy their work.
why does negativity have to be attached to it? it's only so if you allow it to be.
and, just cause certain people (myself included) choose not to participate in that, what the hell gives me the right to say it's wrong, scanky, or any other judgmental adjective? nothing, absolutely nothing.
Silver Lightning,
Well, as I said, in a general sense it's not wrong. I don't care what other people do with their lives, it's not for me to control, or even attempt to. But when I think about it, of course I feel bad for people who are stripping because they feel they have no choice, and I feel equally bad for someone who's so shallow and overconfident that they can actually feel good about showing off their body every night. Yeah, you do that in a relationship too, but that's to one other person, in the privacy of your own home, or bedroom. That's the difference--not anything religious, it's just a matter of self-control. By your logic, everyone should just be allowed to walk naked down the street, go to work naked, hell, spend their entire lives naked if they so choose. As long as no one touched anyone else, it would be ok, right?
I disagree with the fact that people in relationships are essentially whoring themselves. That's a disgusting way to look at it. You might feel dirty after a bad relationship ends, and you look back at all you did for that person and realize that it wasn't worth it. You could get an STD from someone and feel dirty for an entirely different reason. But to say that sex is no more than a battle of wills, or that people consciously carefully plan their compliments and conversations just to score, I don't know if I believe that. It may be true in some cases, but certainly not all.
I don't think sex is dirty, or even has to be reserved strictly for when you're in love. I've done the friends with benefits thing, and found it enjoyable. I've been in serious relationships that were sexual, and they too were enjoyable. But if we ever choreographed our every move as you seem to be implying, I sure never realized it. Sex is usually a lot more spontaneous than that.
the difference between everyone walking down the street and going to work naked, and being in strip clubs is that people go to strip clubs to see people naked. they pay for it. people do not pay to see people who may or may not be attractive naked on the street, or in the workplace. so no, it's not the same thing. I do have to agree with something that ForReel said. People prefer to see confidence. I don't know about you, but in my experience, people who are insecure or self conscious have major issues being seen vulnerable, whether that's being naked, under pressure, or both. people aren't going to pay to see a self-conscious or insecure stripper. That wouldn't be entertaining in the least. they want to see these strippers out there showing off what they've got. that's sexy. Errogant, sometimes, but sexy, and hey, they don't have to deal with that as soon as they leave the club. that's the beauty of it. they get their rocks off for the night, and they don't have to keep her satisfied afterwards. whether you respect the strippers beyond the entertainment depends on the individual, but for better or worse, that's what they paid for.
OceanDream, I only take issue with your reference to a man raping vs. going to a strip club.
Men who rape are using the sexual act as a predatory violent act. Most men, even men with blue balls, will never rape.To rape, you must manipulate the circumstances, overpower an otherwise unwilling participant (usually causing other injuries or unwanted use of drugs to go with it), and then violate and also end up cause internal injuries.
This feminist thinking about men as rapists, or men as potential rapists, is a 90s, outmoded fundamentalist-style definition that makes no more sense than sying all people are potentially thieving, murdering, or some other violation-based criminal.
Rape is a sexual violation, often resulting in even other violations, but it has less to do with sexual desire and more to do with hatred and manipulation. Ironically, the feminists who paint all men as potential rapists, and the religious fundamentalists who claim that a scantily clad woman "wanted" or "asked to be" raped, are really just playing from the same playbook.
Neither side can account for an elderly unattractive (sexually, at least to a younger man) being raped.
Men who go to strip clubs are looking for one form of gratification.
Men who rape, are looking to express their misogynistic hatred, manipulate and take advantage of a woman within a specific target range. In part, they get profiled based on their victims.
the concept of all men as potential rapists is just another aspect to the shame-based industry sponsored by your friends in the Feminist and Fundamentalist Christian camps. Both of whom have profited, financially and otherwise, to such obscene proportions, they make the oil companies look positively penniless and poor!
I don't remember ever saying the word consciously.
Ok, let me use a little less provokative terms, that might make it a little easier. IN a relationship, there is give and take. The guy may do the dishes without having being asked to do so, or the girl may make her husband his favorite dinner, just to make him happy. This is prostitution in a nonsexual way. You are providing a favor for which you are receiving a payment.
Stop thinking that the word prostitution only means sex. Look it up, it has multiple meanings. The word prostitution can refer to any act which places you below another person. Doing something solely for someone elses pleasure, is prostituting yourself to them. Simply because you didn't have sex with them, makes no difference.
If you do something nice for your husband/boyfriend/wife/girlfriend, you are being a prostitute. If you do something involving your body, you are being a stripper. If you wear a short skirt that he likes to see you in, you're stripping for him. Plain and simple. True, its a more innocent version of stripping, but its still stripping.
All that aside though, you didn't answer my question. What do you find so morally repulsive about sex? You seem to be bound and determined to second guess everything you've said. Its like you know your opinion is ludicrous, but won't admit it.
If its not wrong, why do you find it morally repugnant, and what do you have against sex? Answer those two questions.
Going with SilverLightning and Foreel on this one.
A strip club is an entertainment service, the same way a movie theater, an arcade, a buffet, a baseball game is a service. There are more, take your pick if it will make this easier to understand.
A quality strip club will care about the well-being of its employees, and a bad one won't. Same as any other business. They sell a fantasy, a scene and a service. I see nothing wrong with enjoying that service for what it is.
The danger is in your friend, and people like him. It's a danger across the board, really. When you start substituting a business relationship for an intimate one, you're going to lose out more than the business is. There's a billion reasons for why this happens, but really our generation is just terrible with communication and expressing our emotions, desires, insecurities and such.
And you say you don't have a problem with what people do, so why are you so mad with your male friend for confessing to his close female friend he went to one of these nasty places and enjoyed it?
You don't even want to talk to him anymore. He has become nasty, amoral, sex crazed, and not your close friend anymore. The complete relationship has changed, because you see he might start to want to rape the unwilling.
And God forbid he get in to the profession he wants after seeing naked girls for money!
Okay, I seem harsh, but I don't mean to be. What I'd love for you to do is experience one of these places and talk with the staff. Go to a decent one that has males as well. Because you can't see if you ask nicely you are permitted to touch the person in a non sexual manner to see what they are wearing and how they feel or look. It will be interesting.
Maybe you decide you don't like it, but I'll bet you'll learn it isn't the devils work.
What is it that some of you don't understand about why taking advantage of someone's vulnerability is wrong? Someone who is stripping because she's desperate for money is vulnerable, because she may or may not want to do it. Someone who's so self-obsessed that they want to be in a spotlight all the time is vulnerable, because their ego is going to hurt them in the long run. They might get cut down a few sizes, and realize they're not such hot shit after all, and fall into depression. Or God forbid they might actually get raped or have some other traumatizing experience, which may or may not be related to their work, and lose that invincible attitude in a hell of a hurry. Maybe they take drugs if they truly do have mental issues that cause them to hate their bodies so much that they can't imagine working in an honest profession, and use the drugs to numb whatever insecurities they have so that when they start climbing that pole, they won't care what people think of them. I don't care how many people the girls have sex with, or if they have none at all. Sex isn't the issue. What I find repulsive about it is the emotional aspect, the fact that guys don't think about that at all, they just want to get off. But deep down they're getting off on the fact that the girl sunk so low that she's letting him take her dignity. And, like I said above, it could go the other way around too, if the roles were reversed. I'd say the same thing if guys stripped for girls in that type of setting.
And no, I don't think that's a healthy attitude for a future psychologist to have. It's sadistic, really. And I definitely don't think he would rape anyone.
The only thing that could possibly be ludicrous about my opinion is that it's unpopular, but I'm used to that.
Not taking sides, but opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one.
It makes sense that a subject which f&R for example doesn't like associates negative connotations to. But the truth really is that prostitution is a controlled business. If a girl wants to give up her body for $$$, that's her choice. Just like abortion. I may or may not agree with it but at the end of the work week, it's their decision. There will always be an ass for every seat, so if you're selling yourself, there'll probably be at least one person who will want it. Simple as that.
So volnerability is the problem.
Well then, you should never go to fast food joints. Those people are just down on their luck, they're struggling, and if you don't like your burger, you could make them start slicing their wrists open. Doctors, to hell with them, those egotistical maniacs, one failed patient and they'll be on the roof of the hospital with a beer and a sniper rifle. Cops, that much power is awful, one person mouthing off to them and their egos won't be able to handle it. They'll end up emptying an entire clip of bullets into someone. Are you starting to see a pattern here?
Everyone is volnerable. You're volnerable, I'm volnerable, that guy down the street is volernable, that person you passed while you were shopping for chocolate chips the other day is volnerable, and you take advantage of it every single day.
But let me ask you this. What exactly is so bad if I were to go out and buy my girlfriend something skimpy and satiny, then take it home and ask to see her in it? I'm asking purely to see her body. Granted, she's my girlfriend, but still, the entire purpose is to see her body displayed in extraordinarily sensual ways. Would my girlfriend go, "You sexest pig, you just want to use me for your own perverse pleasure!" No she wouldn't. She'd think it was great that I think she's sexy enough to wear something like that.
Here's another point. If you dress up all nice and pretty, and you feel great. You've got your skirt, your heels, your favorite top, those new earrings your mom bought you, you just got your hair done, and you feel fabulous. Then you walk past me and I say, "She looks like shit." Wouldn't that hurt your feelings?
Of course it would, that's part of life. Strippers don't care if you don't like them. They don't know who you are. They don't care who you are. They care that you like the way their thong looks, and will soon shove money down it with which they can pay their bills.
Its not morally anything to look at a girl and find her appealing. Its not morally bankrupt for a girl to use her body to gain her things. Saying that she might get raped is A. blaming the victim, which is wrong, and B. moronic. Anyone might get raped, should we all just kill ourselves to avoid it? Of course not.
Wait, I just looked back, and I can't believe you said that looking at a girl's body and finding it pleasing is saddistic. Let me clue you in on something. If you're not a virgin, at some point a guy has looked down at your naked or partially naked body and found it appealing. That saddistic basterd. Now, I can't garrantee this, but I'm pretty sure at some point some guy has sat at home alone, thought about you naked, and gotten hard to the thought. That saddistic basterd.
Guess what, I find the body of a well formed female extremely appealing. Does that make me saddistic? Absolutely not, it makes me human.
You seriously, seriously need to talk to strippers. I challenge you to tell them your opinion and have them not get even more pissed off at you than I already am. Not only are you denegrating men as sadists, which is just rude, presumptuous, idiotic and just plain wrong, but you're saying that every girl who feels she's sexy, and likes to show off parts of her body is little more than a whore to you. That is disgusting. I fail to understand how anyone can have such awful, misguided, prejudice and unfounded opinions of another group of people.
You may find stripping morally repugnant, but I find your opinions morally repugnant. You need to look deep down and figure out how you can possibly say anything about every single stripper alive.
All women that are strippers are being used and taken advantage of right?
They are more likely to get raped, and if they do they have a worse time dealing with it, because stripping lead to them being raped and they realize they asked for it right?
They can never work in a respectable profession, such as practice law like many do, because one day they wake up and realize there nasty, so grab the Visa Gold, jump in to the BMW and head out to buy drugs, depressed and sad and become homeless whores right?
Why can’t I except that this is the road all these nasty girls are going to have to travel one day? Because it just isn’t true.
Does your male gynecologist have to go rape someone after he’s looked at naked women all day, because he’s sexually frustrated? I suppose all gynecologists should be women, and no lesbians should be allowed to practice this profession either.
You also have forgotten that stripping is not only a female profession, many males do it as well, so what road are they headed for?
What about the women that goes to these nasty places to see women strip? Are they subjecting their sisters to depravity?
No, I personally can’t accept your view, because I personally know some strippers that are beautiful people, work respectable jobs, and don’t wake up screaming in the night over it. They take care of themselves, keep fit, eat healthy, and thing drug users are abusing the gift nature as provided.
One is a mother and loves her baby dearly even.
Again I say go reeducate yourself. I could except your views if you investigated this subject and came back and told me that all you met were self-destructing and mentally screwed up.
Also the women that have agreed with her I'd like to hear more of your views? I am interested in why your boyfriend would makke you dislike him if he went to a place like this? Would you go with him if he invited you?
Cody. I'm glad you made the point about the fast food workers. I agree.
Okay, if strippers are being exploited, then how do you know that the teenager cooking your food at McDonalds loves the work? are you going to look down on everyone who goes to McDonalds, since it might have some unhappy workers just grinding along and trying to pay the bills?
F&R, what makes you think and come to the conclusion that "What is it that some of you don't understand about why taking advantage of someone's vulnerability is wrong? Someone who is stripping because she's desperate for money is vulnerable, because she may or may not want to do it. Someone who's so self-obsessed that they want to be in a spotlight all the time is vulnerable, because their ego is going to hurt them in the long run. They might get cut down a few sizes, and realize they're not such hot shit after all, and fall into depression..."?
Inn what way, just because they are stripper suggest that they are vulnerable?
Wake up, just because you think it is morally incorrect, because of your teaching, your culture, your religion and value, doesn't mean that it is necesary the case.
Do you think girls that work for playboy because they been forst because they are vulnerable? well, sorry to burst your sweet bubble, but there are girls cueing to become the next playboy model. Just because you disapprove, you and your teachingn put a cap to suggest that it is wrong to strip, it is wrong to provide such service.
Guess what? Stripper and prostitude is different thing. In fact, no one can touch the stripper at all. not even intent to. if you try, or have some sort of intention, next thing you know, you'll be throw out of the club. as simple as that.
Of course, like any business and service, you got some good one and some bad one. in a good club, and i'm talking about a proper strip club, you need to be a member in order to get in.
And guess what? sorry to burst your sweet bubble wrap again, there're not only men going to stripp club. women are there too. Just because women don't go and share this kind of things with their pals, doesn't mean it didn't happen. and just because men go and share with their pal, doesn't mean they are dirty.
Tell you what, strippers have my respect, and i'm sure they get most men respect too. Just because they strip, doesn't mean they are any lower IQ than you and me, or anyone. Just because they strip, doesn't mean they have problems, they mentally unfit. Just because they strip, doesn't mean they must be poor, or vulnerable. In fact, some strippers got a perfect satisfying day job, working as a lawyer, nurse, teacher, or whatever. and they decided to make the choice of become a stripper at night.
And, just so that you sure, we are clearly talking about stripper, we are not talking about illegal prostitude, or illegal sex worker. Yes, watch my word, i'm not talking about "ILLEGAL PROSTITUTION"
Leo, I know rapists rape for an entirely different reason than people go to strip clubs. I was just pointing it out because certain people on the topic were talking about men going to strip clubs like they had just raped the women there, and seem to view it as just as morally wrong.
F&R, I hate to say it, but until you go to strip clubs yourself, which I seriously doubt you will at this point, you really can't say what all goes on there, and unless you see the employees behind the scenes, you really have no room to claim they're treated horribly or taken advantage of. As others have pointed out, using your logic, people who work at fast food joints must have absolutely horrible lives. they take your order and serve your food for very little pay, and often, they're not even appreciated as much as the services of strippers. You should be utterly ashamed of yourself for going to McDonalds, and I don't know how your friends can stand talking to you after you have taken advantage of those helpless, hopeless workers.
Good point, Ocean, not to mention that often those fastfood workers are usually very young, inexperience, and got very low pay. I can't speak for America, or even the Europe, but often, In Australia, fastfood workers range from 14 years old, to 18 years old. the starting wage for a 14 year old is cheaper than let say a 16 year old worker. ones they grow older, they expect and need and should be pay more than when they are younger. Often, employer will dismiss them when they come to 18 or 19 year old, simply because they got too expendsive and find someone younger, cheaper, who do the equal amount of job.
Yes, it is different from the stripper environment, but, seriously, if you look at the theory of supply and demand, it will be always there. stripping legally, or prostituting illegally, just because you disagree with it, or certain religion teaching disagree with it, doesn't mean it will disappear. Whenever there's demand, there will be supply, as simple as that. And if that is the case, what is wrong of having those strippers, even sex workers, women and men, working in a more healthy, legal, protective and secure environment, than working in a illegal bruffle?
Just because they illegal, doesn't mean they didn't exist, doesn't mean men or women doesn't frequen such places. Just because they legal, doesn't mean it will stop men or women from frequening such places, but at the same time, perhaps, have more respect from the clients than before.
Lol. Man, some of you need to roll a blunt and chill the fuck out. Cody especially. It's a message board. There's a reason why I ain't been on here for a few years. You just get no where on here you know so when I do post something I take it with a microscopic grain of salt. If Fire and rain thinks that way, let them think that way. Being assertive is fine if you do it in an appropriate way but come on bro. Chill.
Trust me, you haven't seen me pissed off yet. I could go on a rant, and I'm tempted to, about how its moronic to tell people to stop sharing opinions on a board designed for the sharing of opinions, but it would be totally off topic, so I won't do it. So I'll just say, if the only thing you're going to say is that we should all calm down, please don't waste our time. If you want all of us to keep our opinions to ourselves, shut up and lead by example. Thank you. We now return you to your regularly scheduled argument.
you know what's way worse than strippers? professional sports. I have a hard time thinking of an industry that is more exploytative than, oh let's say, professional major league baseball; and I've never heard anybody get all up in arms when their best friends go to a baseball game.
Those egomaniacal crazy people who whore out their bodies and let their pictures be put on energy drink cans must all be crazy, right?
The point that I'm trying to make here is that any industry can be looked at as exploytative and wrong, whether it be stripping, sports, or table waiter.
All the poster has done is to project her own particular brand of radicalism onto a perfectly harmless and inane every day situation.
Also, to the original poster, you may in fact have done your friend a service. If your chief form of friendship is to subject your friends to high ground moralizing fox newsesque fundamentalist bullshit, and not to be supportive, it's at least good that you let them know in no uncertain terms.
I can't believe how regressive some people are.
All of us middle class working people, working for corporations, even corporations who do things we don't agree with are hoes.
I am a hoe, because I am the only income in my household. So everyone who buys products from the company I work for, or contracts with them, are as bad as people going to a strip club.
Instead of giving up a few years a few hours a night with the clothes off, I, like most software people, have signed away all of my talents and intellectual rights to companies over the years. No stripper has signed a noncompete agreement stating if they leave their current employer they will not work for the competition or share inside knowledge for a set number of years. But every single software developer I have worked with over the years has done this.
So we software people are "worse", in the opinion of the original poster, than the strippers. After all, what we do affects decades of our lives, and when you're out you're often out of the business. Anyone who buys software also must be worse than the people who go to strip clubs. We work more hours and earn a lot less than strippers in gentlemen's clubs.
And nobody gives a damn about us, speaking of unappreciated. They only notice us if they find a bug. The original poster must really despise the industry that maintains these boards, if her principles apply across the board. Again, we're not talking a few years here. We're talking decades. We're not tlaking a few hours a nite a couple nights a week here, we're talking at least 60 hour work weeks. How can you possibly post to or read this board now, you pigs? The one and only reason it's different is that the shame industry profited by both camps I mentioned in my previous post hasn't caught up with shaming people for forever selling out their rights to their talents, discoveries, and other aspects that make up themselves.
That's right: we software people, and people I know who work in drug companies doing research, and other privatized scientific companies, sell a very significant portion of ourselves over the years, and most of us put in a lot more hours for a lot less than the strippers. What a repugnant bunch we must be, or will be, once the shame industry has finally found a way to make that one stick. And how repugnant must be the people who use our software, take their medicines, or otherwise buy and sell the use of scientific data. That data is a part of those who discovered it, or invented its use. No more and no less than a body.
I am now posting in hopes that the people againststripping, and there were more than the origenal poster, they've just not continued, that you read it and check out the story I have provided a link for. Also I'd like to know your views on my question at the end.
To all that have defended this profession, I am glad to see some many open minded people. Roll a joint? Geezes, isn't that illegal? Lol
I have been defending the profession of stripping, or women using their bodies to earn money.
I have stated that many are well adjusted people and can and do live what is socially considered to be respectable lives.
Yes, it is a fact that some continue not being what is socially thought to be respecible as well, but this is not only in this profession, or the cause.
Teri Weigel is a former Playmate that has been open about being a prostitute, so it does happen, but she seems to be successful at it.
Pamela Anderson is also a former Playmate, but is famous for her acting ability and has not become a dribbling confused druggie.
Lynne Austin opened Hooters. Yes it sales food with sex, but is a thriving business and open to all ages.
Carrmella DeCesare is boss of the WWE.No you might not like it, but it is making her rich.
Jaime Faith Edmondson (January 2010), former police officer, Miami Dolphins
This list could go on.
Now let us move on to a story about a regular girl that wanted to become independent, something that many young girls want to do, right?
Read this interesting story. I know some actual girls that have this same dream, so do or did stripping to get there.
http://www.yesandyes.org/2010/01/true-story-i-was-stripper.html
Last how do you feel about the Miss Universe contest, or the Miss America pageant? We have many contest for female beauty, so what do you think about them?
I can't deny that you all are making some good points. I guess, in one way or another, we all get exploited in life, doing things we hate, just to make ends meet. I guess I still consider stripping one of the lower forms of exploitation, like child labor perhaps, but it's all going to happen anyway, whether it's acceptable or not, so there's nothing I can do about it. While I think a couple of people in particular didn't have to be such assholes about it, I respect you all for presenting a pretty logical case, and I'm not one who backs down from an argument or opinion easily. And, for the record, I didn't tell my friend how I felt at all. That's why I posted here, to get opinions on it before I talked to him. So no, I don't act high and mighty towards my friends. That's probably why they trust me enough to tell me stuff like this in the first place.
for arguement sake, we know that child labour is unacceptable and that, but, what will be better if there's a choice between child labour, and child being homeless, and get in to drugs and all sort of stuff? which one is worst?
I see where you're going there. If a stripper has a personality that's more flirtatious, and he or she has a higher sex drive than normal, is it better for her to work in a relatively safe environment, or whore herself and risk death every day? In that case I'd agree, stripping is better.
F&R, by not sharing your feelings with this guy, you call yourself a true friend?
to each their own, but I can't agree with that at all.
just had to point that out, as, in my opinion, true friends share their feelings whether the person they're friends with would agree with them or not.
maybe it'd help broaden perspectives, or, perhaps encourage one to think altogether differently than before.
maybe not, but if opinions are kept to oneself, no one will ever get anywhere worthwhile or productive.
but, I guess some people would rather sit in silence and never share their thoughts with those they call friends.
sorry for getting off topic; someone had to say it, though.
Ah, but who says stripper have a highter sex drive than women that don't strip?
They do not have sex they create the feeling of sex. If you read that story I posted you'll learn that the lady is lesbian, so at the time she was working in this profession she was not turned on at all bgy her male customers.
You Fire, aren't the only one apposed, so I am interested in others that are who have posted here views?
Also, I agree when you decide to talk to your hopefully friend, do tell him your feelings.
I agree that we owe it to our close friends to tell them how we feel. I also think that there's nothing wrong with taking some time to reflect before speaking. If a friend broadsides me with something, and I'm not sure what I think about it, I will try to tell the friend that I would like a bit of time to think it over and sort out my feelings on the issue, instead of just spouting the first thing that comes to mind. This hasn't always been the case.
I so do not like this judgement that if a lady is stripping at a strip club she got issues, I personally have met some very pretty, smart, funny ladies at a strip club just trying to get through some form of education with a dollar bill or two in there hand. Now, that is not to say some of the dancers have issues but there people too. Keep this in mind, each stripper has their own life and they choose to dance at a strip club. No, let me be clear, I no longer attend those places because my wife would have by all means to kill me "slap the hell out of me" for touching another lady.
Wow, do we live in a close minded country or what? So I take it if you have moral values different from your own you either suffer from low self esteem or a mental illness? What leads you to believe that? I don't believe strippers have low self esteem, quite the opposite. I think someone who is comfortable getting naked infront of strangers night after night has a lot of self confidence in the way they look, that's not in line with low self esteem. Especially when you consider strangers will make comments on your looks. I think the biggest reason people become strippsers is because it's easy money. What skill does it require? You don't have to read or write or know how to use a computer. All you have to do is take off you clothes and people throw money at you. That's why girls who are lazy but have good looking bodies become strippers. Or they just want to piss off mom and dad! Don't even get me started on mental illness, you know what mental illness is? Asking if you would like fries with that while serving milk-shakes night after night and getting nothing more than minimum wage. At least strippers get paid!
I just read the article, so now i see where you're coming from. However, the girl did say that some of the strippers she met were skanky or had shady motives, so it's just like anything else, you can be in any profession and be corrupt. I guess, then, since I have no idea what kind of strippers my friend encountered, I can't make a fair judgment, but I can't exactly settle my doubts, either. Which leads me into talking to him, well, the way some of you are carrying on and accusing me of being a prude, why the hell should I bother? I honestly don't care, because you're all anonymous to me, which is another reason why I could ask here. I have a hard time expressing my thoughts, especially when I have to look someone in the eye and do it, but writing my thoughts down has always been easier, sometimes to the point where I say things I regret. But anyway, that's not how I want someone I care about to think of me, especially since it's not true.
Just bear in mind, many of us could be said to have all these so-called issues, in Middle America, because we ar locked into things professionally for no other reason than to pay for the support of the spouse and kids.
I've known truck drivers like this, even teachers like this, it's all over the place. And especially for professions where you sell and contract away a good part of your being, your soul if you will, to corporate conglomerates, then we must be far worse than strippers. We certainly don't feel good at all about the lack of recognition, or someone else owning the rights to all we do and produce, but we do it because they pay us, we sign for it without a gun to our head, and we all have reasons for doing it. The shame industry, and the jealous, pick on the strippers. Just the way the witch-burnings were often enhanced when the ladies of the town would prefer to get rid of somebody who was unusually attractive: no more no less.
Now, on the other issue: I really don't know about all this 'you have to be you', and tell all of how you feel. I often reserve the right to withhold how I feel about what someone is doing, and don't resent them for it. This is particularly true if I feel very strongly about it. I'd rather take the time to cool my jets, get it together, be a man instead of a little tiny boy / investigate the situation and maybe be challenged, see if how I feel really measures up to reality, before compromising a relationship or saying things I will later regret having said. I've said a lot of things as a young fool that I particularly regret now, even if the people who were the unfair recipients were gracious about it.
And to be perfectly fair, I've never been to a strip club, and don't think I would even if I was unattached. But I know, especially in recent years, I have had to compromise principles in order to keep food on the table. And once you do that, you never go back: you are forever altered in your perceptions about such things. Those who are high and mighty haven't had to choose between feeding a minor dependent / family members and standing up for some principle, where doing so may not even affect the perspective of those operating differently where you work.
if it isn't true, how about facing that fear of voicing your thoughts to people you're supposedly close to, instead of avoiding it?
that might actually get you somewhere you never thought possivle, and, you may learn a thing or two about yourself, strippers, your friend, and life, in the process.
I've heard it said that American society is sexually repressed. Do you think this is true?
Absolutely, and it shows. If you look at the statistics of STD, teen pregnancy, and abortion, we are near the topp if not at the top of the developed world. Europe doesn't have nearly the same problem we do, and they are no where near as sexually repressed. I may be wrong, but I believe they teach contraceptives in sex Ed, they do not have the same stigma against sex, and they have seen results with it.
America really just needs to relax and realize that sex is fun, and they should have it. Its not some poison that will destroy your life if you have it under the wrong circumstances. If you know what you're doing, its nothing to worry about. That's the problem though, not everyone knows what they're doing.
In the grand scheme of things, selling your soul is a hell of a lot worse than selling your body. I still wonder about those who sell both, and how that makes them feel the next morning, or 20 years down the road, but I suppose that's for them to deal with. Besides, the sacrifices you make, like having to give up your integrity in order to be considered an adult, are really no worse than stripping. I guess in a way it's almost analogous, assuming, of course, that the strippers in question are feeling a sense of loss for giving anything up. But just as some people transition into adulthood and its responsibilities smoothly, seeming not to care, or even notice, what they give up, such as the right to express themselves, or empathy for others, which is just seen as weakness, while others such as myself can't understand how people can possibly let go of those things, I guess stripping is a lot like that. It could be the best or worst thing you ever do.
It's all a learning experience. Negative or positive, just take what you can of it, annalize it and then decide what you think. who knows. Twenty years down the road and a few life experiences later, you'll probably have much more to base it on.
Well I honestly don't mind your stating your belief, however, when you assume that "all" are this or that that is where we get in to debate.
I would like you to be educated and have an educated view point, not a guess. You might not like stripping after you are truly educated, but you'll at least understand it better and hopefully not assume that all.
You have stated that people do anything to get in to adult hood, but remember that story was one girls, and some others way. Some are adults that need to pay the bills and simple enjoy the work. Some even get turned on by the work, like a cook does when she or he's made a great meal.
I want you to understand it befor you bash it.
It is a good thing to reflect on your thoughts before you talk to your friend, but here you came on so strong, you created, at least with me, a strong reaction.
You basicly insulted some lovely people I know for the profession they choose, and you have never been inside a club. Your next step is to go. They won't bite you, I promise. Smile.
You don't necessarily need to go, but if you choose not to, then you have no right to talk as though you know everything about it.
She needs to go. I wanna hear her come back and say "Yea baby!" hahaha
Ok, so if I have no right to talk about it as if I know everything, why should I talk to my friend about it? Some people sure seem to have some strange ideas about things.
why should you talk to your friend? simple, cause, as you keep saying time and time again, you have strong feelings about it, and, he's supposedly someone you care about.
plus, I don't think it's fair to allow someone to think you're perfectly fine with something they've done or are doing, when a few sentences could clearly show them the truth.
here, let me try and put it into perspective for you: you've said on other board posts, if I recall correctly, that you don't like it when those close to you hide things, or flat out don't tell you, for one reason or another. so, why would you develop that same attitude? that's ludacrous, in my opinion.
I usually don't, unless it has the potential to damage the friendship. If I'm concerned about someone, or just expressing a general opinion, I can do that, and I expect the same from anyone I'm friends with.
Back to the topic, though, have I not taken at least a less offensive stand than I did before? The main idea of my message when I posted this topic was that strippers are down on their luck, mentally ill, or desperate. Now I've amended that statement to say that although those could be reasons, there are a lot more, but the main one I see is that some people choose their battles and sacrifices differently. Some people, consciously or unconsciously, give up things like their integrity to succeed, or drastically change their personality to keep food on the table. Stripping, I'm starting to understand, is just one more behavior on that spectrum. So, I don't think it's wrong anymore, because we all have to give up aspects of ourselves if we want to survive. Do I hate that? Sure, but there's no way to change it. It's just one of those things that humans do that's more biologically based than anything else. If we wanted to survive in prehistoric times, we had to either be strong or work our asses off to become so by copying others. Any weakness was literally clubbed over the head, or left to fester and starve, and that was the end of that. Today, it's much the same, although it's much more subtle due to the advancement of technology and civilization in general. Physically, in the US and other developed countries, we are stronger and healthier than ever. Mentally and emotionally, however, not so much. Those are the weaknesses that the strong exploit and crush. We can survive physically and still be dead inside. But there's no concern for that, because the state of your soul isn't supposed to matter. Certainly not in any professional sense, and people are supposed to be able to separate their personal and professional lives completely, like two perfect halves of a whole, but more often than not the weak fail and the strong prosper. Weakness comes in many forms for this: people who are loved and admired by everyone in their town or city and then go home and beat their wives and children, and the abused ones are never believed because of how highly respected the person is; people so bored with their jobs that the dullness extends into their marriages as well, leading to infidelity, alcoholism, or anything else that temporarily gives them a rush; or people like me who simply can't just go with what everyone else wants, think what everyone else thinks, say all the right things at any given moment, and no one will ever let you forget every little mistake you make, because every single one is tallied up to measure how unprofessional and therefore wasteful you are. So yes, I understand stripping as well as I think I can now. It's not sad, it's not evil, it's just another survival mechanism. If that's wrong, so be it. But that's as far back as I think I'll bend on the issue.
Well, I did note that some people said they had to give up their integrity for their job to keep food on the table, but I don't believe that all people feell this way.
Stripping is no different, in that, some women choose to do it because they are good at it, and it earns them more pay quicker than say receptionist at a business.
The girls I know personally don't feel they have given up there integrity , it was something exciting to try, and fun. Like being a top musician, or actor, when you hit the stage you make people like what you're doing, and that is a heady feeling.
Now I can't say all strippers feel this way, but the few I've come in contact with do. They like the job. They keep the body in shape, and well feed, so they can perform at top.
So they are not soul sick, and many are not. They smile, tease the customers, and take home good pay. Not all earn top dollar, just like not all doctors earn top dollar as well.
You want to find some pit fall in this no matter how we post, and yes some have posted the integrity line, but I strongly disagree with it.
I think you'll not change your opinion on it, but now you have another view point.
well said, Wayne.
You should talk to your friend. that's totally different than talking to him as though you know everything. Maybe he'll bring some things to the table you hadn't thought of before, just as you might. That doesn't mean either of you claim to know everything.
F&R, what disturbs me, is the fact you still feel people are giving up something valuable in being strippers.
just cause you may feel that way personally, doesn't mean it's at all true. in fact, I'd argue that people in that profession gain a hell of a lot, as most see it as nothing short of rewarding.
I myself haven't been to one, yet. I don't see the problem with strip clubs themselves or even the strippers. Like most have said everyone has different reasons for doing the job and going.
Like anything else, people go there to feed bad habbits, but that goes with anything. Should strip clubs not exist then? Sure, but then maybe we should get rid of fast food restaurants, casinos, and the like.
Also, people do some crazy shit in school and that's just how people are. I wouldn't think about it too much personally. Your friend might just be doing what some college people do. It could have been worse. If he was engaging in illegal prostitution then I would see why there would be such concern, but I don't see too much reason to worry.
Didn't I say that giving up your soul is just about the most normal thing in the world? Everybody does it, to varying degrees, so what strippers are doing is no worse than what everyone else is doing. They just choose to express it differently. Or maybe they do it for the rush of rebellion that comes with it, something that fills the emptiness that giving up their souls has caused. That sounds reasonable enough to me too.
wow, I have to say some people on here are so hateful. That being said I will never frequent strip clubs and don't associate with people who think that is pleasing. Have a blessed day.
Well, that's your loss and it's a shame that you can judge someone by one thing that they do that you don't agree with.
I know, right? if we all judged each other negatively on one thing, no one would get anywhere successful in life.
Yep. Some people don't always have much of a choice to make either. Some people don't have any other job opportunities that come up for them, and the strip club job might be their only shot at having work for some time, with the way the economy is. People are not perfect, society is not perfect, and to say that you will not associate with people because they are not within your standards of morality is ludacris. Hope I spelled that right. Lol
Coal miners sell their lungs, construction worker sell their ears. People just have hangups about tits and asses, and the same people support a deregulated environment where people can readily sell lungs, ears, and all sorts of body parts.
Hell, if I could sell a kidney to pay off the family debt and get us outa this financial situation, I'd do it. And the shame industry wouldn't care: they're most heavily invested in anything in the sexual area.
Just pointing out the totally ludicrous nature of this discussion, or so-called issue.
Wow. jldiaz421, you are, in my opinion, worse than the original poster. At least she actually expressed *some* willingness to talk to her friend about it before judging him. And you say people on here are hateful...
But FR I have never given up my soul, and giving up yones soul is not the most natural thing in the world to do. If that were true, than you'd be willing to give up your soul if someone came to you and said you can come over and strip and I'll pay you 1 thousand a night to do it.
You'd not take that job offer being how you feel about it.
Why does stripping mean a person has given up there soul? Since you keep saying so answer that please?
Last I'd not sale a kidney to pay off the family debt. Sorry. Debt can be managed many other ways than this, and debt is something we create.
Now of course if you lost your job and couldn't replace it, you'd have no choice but to have debt you couldn't pay, but that is why we have credit laws to protect us from this.
Now if I'm starting out I'd not create debt I can't pay. I know many do, but that is a different topic.
Strippers, not all of them are working to pay debts. I have said some do pay college, the rent, but they aren't necessarily forced to do this work to pay the bills. Some like it.
Why is that concept difficut to understand?
Idk, maybe some people just don't know they have other options. The reasons are limitless.
This discussion is starting to go around in circles...I'm not giving up by any means, because I don't believe in that, but I do know a lost cause when I see one.
I'm saying that there are *many* ways to give up your soul, and no, stripping isn't a choice I would make to give up mine. I don't think anyone consciously picks the roads in life that will lead to sacrifices of the nature I'm talking about. I can think of things I've done that have contributed to me giving up my integrity, but I never asked for them to happen, nor did I realize that I had come away as less of a person until it was too late. I doubt strippers take their job thinking that they're throwing away their integrity, either. It just happens. Or maybe it doesn't, depending on the person in question.
But maybe it's easier for me to accept it if I can relate it to what I perceive to be normal. Maybe this understanding that I've come to isn't really so bad. It's certainly made me less angry, and not nearly as judgmental.
I'm surprised you are still keeping up with it. I couldn't agree more.
the discussion isn't going in circles, F&R; people are just trying to get you to understand that what you see as "selling one's soul" isn't so.
For once I'm actually inclined to agree with the "liberal minded" here. I have a question for all of you though. How many of you have actually met a stripper? How many have taken the time to ask them, or try to understand why they're doing what they're doing? It's like everything else in life. People do this for many different reasons. I don't agree with it either, but I'd hardly consider it selling one's soul. But that's a whole other discussion.
food for thought, maybe some people are just sexually expressive and love watching others get off do to their looks, abilityies to move in a sexual way. I personally, do not support the idea of someone stripping just to get food on the table but then again, I am not a stripper and do not know what a stripper is going through at there time of need.
I agree that this topic really won't go anywhere because it all boiils down to matters of individual opinion. We might as well be debating gay marriages, abortions, pre or extramarrital sex, religious beliefs etc because everyone has their own opinion about what is or isn't sexually immoral. One person might say a stripper lacks dignity and self respect because she chooses to display her body to the public every night instead of saving it for that one special person while the next person might say a woman who chooses to strip for any and everyone who wants to see is actually expressing her high levels of confidence and love for herself while having a little fun and making a little extra cash on the side. But I guess where it starts to get questionable is when in some cases it turns from her simply taking off her clothes and dancing in front of a crowd of men to getting up all over one while getting groped and fondled in exchange for money...
Ah, but that is what debate is all about different opinions. In this case the poster came out fighting and called all women, she still hasn't excepted or answered my questions about the men, that strip bad, emotionally, abused, and mentally unstable people to name a few things she said.
The_Blind_Guardian
if you have read my postings I am one of these people that have met and have friends that did or do strip. I have also been to the places for entertainment and will go again.
F&R, how does one strip consider one give up their soul and integrity? and, more so, who are you, and what are you to judge that? with what, that you come to the judgement and conclusion that one strip because they doesn't have other choice, they are mentally unstable, they don't have integrity, and in some way, they give up their soul?
you said this is going round and round in circle, because, you didn't in ones, answer all this question, so, it is much easier to say, "hey, lets stop this discussion as its go round and round in circle", than have the guts to say "hey, i'm a judgemental freak because my friend went to a strip club. i think he's dirty, he's disgusting, etc etc"?
The more opinions we hear, and the more life experience we have, the more we fine tune our thought process. Total understanding doesn't happen over night. I usually go from one extreme to the other before finally finding a balance. I'm 40 years old, and I still grow and learn, shaking off old beliefs and rethinking my position on a lot of things. There's no point in being hateful. All we can do is point out what we perceive, and listen to those around us as they do the same. A good mutual exchange of ideas is healthy.
backing down from sharing opinions/debating with others, is equivalent to trying hard to please everyone but oneself.
in fact, I'd argue it's the very reason there are so many thin skinned people in the world.
I mean, what's the point of having an opinion if you aren't gonna share it, perhaps present a different perspective, or, just stand up for something you feel strongly about? it's absolutely pointless; I'm sure others would agree.
I'm well aware that most individuals don't like to hear what they, for any slu of reasons, can't accept. then, when someone like me, Cody, or Wayne comes along who's very vocal about our feelings, thin skinned folks want us to shut up. that isn't the way life works, though; at least, not if you actually wanna succeed.
But did I say I would stop posting? No, I didn't. I said, though maybe not directly, that some people confuse intelligent debate with belittling others. I think that some of you honestly want me to stop posting so that you can say that I ran away with my tail between my legs. I don't have to sink to that level to make my points, even if I don't agree with what some of you are saying. And to be clear, not all of you are insinuating that I'm worthless, although there's been a lot of that in the last 5 posts or so. With that out of the way, let's get to the only valid point I've seen since yesterday.
If a man is stripping, I'd say the exact same thing I'd say about a female stripping. If I've said once throughout this whole topic that it's only women who are victimized, only women who strip, only women who would sell their souls, then please, I implore you, show me where I said it. And I don't mean twist my words around either, I mean directly quote me. If not, let me try, though I think it's probably in vain, to once again explain my position.
I would guess, though I don't know for certain, that when a man strips, he's probably lonely, seeking thrill and adventure, or maybe doesn't want to be tied down, so he does the easiest thing, exposes himself to women every night. Women can do it for the exact same reasons. But I still say that selling your soul is probably up there somewhere on that list of reasons for both men and women. No value is placed on our inner selves these days, and in fact the value of emotions is next to nothing.
again, your viewpoints are coming from your own self esteem issues.
you're making assumptions based on how you perceive something to be, without having gone to a strip club, or talked to male/female strippers as has been suggested you do by several people.
and, quite frankly, I don't think any of us gives a damn weather you continue posting.
And I don't give a damn whether you continue posting, either. Where exactly do you get the idea that just because I'm sticking to my position, I have self esteem issues?
from your bitterness that has been displayed in many of your recent posts. but, since that isn't what this topic is about, that's all I'll say on the matter.
to get back on topic, I'm curious to hear other stories about those who know confident strippers; Cody, care to share?
I don't want you to stop posting. I want you to answer some of the questions.
You have every right to feel as you do, and in a debate it is my job to change your mind, or at least get you to think about the other side of the picture, and be as I have said re educated.
Here is the reason I think you were only referring to women. You say in your first post "These women made a choice" and you seem to continue on the female side after I pointed out that men strip and ask you what you thought about them.
I would grant you all you believe if 1. You had some proof that the people in this profession were as you state they are. 2. If you had actually visited several places were the people working were basiicly sex slaves. 3. If after you see a po9int you jump to the next poiint of negative instead of saying maybe so?
Example, one poster said people give up their souls for many jobs, so you continued with that frame, in that "yes we all do it" But I don't, never have, and don't believe it is necessary in America to do so.
When you actually go visit a place or spend some time talking to people that do this and you come back and say "yes, I have met several of them that are really trapped." Than you are now on a fighting square. But if you just sit home and assume this profession is the dirt of the world, although it shouldn't be illegal because "These women made a choice," you never will be educated and learn.
F&R, you still haven't answer the question that me and some few other post here.
"F&R, how does one strip consider one give up their soul and integrity? and, more so, who are you, and what are you to judge that? with what, that you come to the judgement and conclusion that one strip because they doesn't have other choice, they are mentally unstable, they don't have integrity, and in some way, they give up their soul?
you said this is going round and round in circle, because, you didn't in ones, answer all this question, so, it is much easier to say, "hey, lets stop this discussion as its go round and round in circle", than have the guts to say "hey, i'm a judgemental freak because my friend went to a strip club. i think he's dirty, he's disgusting, etc etc"?"
Wht you've done is get all upset and offensive, just because we didn't blow the same wissel that you have. and you decided not to provide any prove to your evident of what you so call claime, that strippers, (men or women), lost their soul, have no integrity, and mentally somewhat unstable...
Didn't you, F&R, say earlier that this was not a religious issue. Now you're saying that people are giving up their souls. The only people worried about souls, are religious. No one else even really believes in souls. So is this religious, or not?
Plus, can you please describe to me how shedding clothing robs you of your soul? Are you really so ashamed of your body? Do you think that the female anatomy is so disgusting that you are horrified by the thought of it being exposed? Why aren't you proud of yourself in a physical sense?
Go answer the other questions you're avoiding, then come talk to me. Don't worry, I'll wait.
Ah, and if they had no soul in the first place I guess stripping is even better justified?
hehe.
Just had to.
In this case let us call soul their social correctness, and stability.
I do agree that the female body is a beautiful thing. I'm not bi, but even some males have it tight!
For the record I do understand the soul business. I don't understand how you give it up however because you do thiis sort of work. It is possible that some people become mentally better, and less judgmental, uptight, and self degrading, do to allowing themselves to express? It could actually set a person free and they are happier because of it.
I think it makes the customers feel good, relaxed, and might even help some enjoy sex, love and such relationships better. Sort of a togetherness deal.
Well, ok, I'll try to answer these questions one at a time then.
Is the debate religious or not? No, it isn't. I'm not exactly sure what you call a person's livelihood, if not a soul, but that's what I call it, and it has nothing to do with spouting Bible verses. If you would rather me call it something else so we're on a level playing field, I can deal with that. But every person does have an essence, a core, something that makes them unique. In our society, it seems that uniqueness is the ultimate weakness. It seems that no matter what you do, someone is going to try and stomp it out of you, at increasingly younger ages. Everyone has a public persona which lacks this essence, and it leads to all kinds of problems when you try to mesh those personal and professional parts back into a complete human being.
What does that have to do with stripping, and more importantly, how do strippers give up their souls? That's easy--they either feel an emptiness about having given up their soul some other way, or they're seeking reprieve from this oppressive society that forces you to do that. And I have to disagree that it's unnecessary to give up your soul if you want to be considered professional, an adult, hell, even a person. It happened to me, and just about everyone I've seen in my life has either told me that's how it is, or I can see just how much they've sacrificed in order to get by. I've also seen exactly what happens to those who don't walk the line, and it's painful. I wouldn't wish some of what I've seen on anyone.
Finally, how do I know this is how all strippers are, and this is how they feel? I don't. I know that. No one needs to tell me. There are plenty of jobs that have taken the heat, much of it deserved, but there are some good people in all of them. Cops, well, maybe most of them are trigger-happy, doughnut-obsessed bastards, but I'm sure there are some who want to serve and protect for the right reasons. Not all psychiatrists and psychologists are cold, unfeeling and only interested in money, often at the expense of their patients who need them the most. Talk about a field that often exploits vulnerability! But I've met one psychologist who was truly one of the nicest people I ever met. I also met several who were the stereotype and more. But where this is going is that just as I can't meet every cop in the world, I can't meet every stripper, either. I could peruse the local clubs, although I'm really not a very social person and would feel pretty uncomfortable going alone into that kind of environment anyway. The last thing I want is to be accosted by some crazy bouncer. I could try to interview some of the talent, if you will. But it's not a stripper's job to talk to you, it's their job to put on a show. That's what you came there to enjoy. If you wanted deep conversation, you go on a date. Again, please correct me if I'm wrong about that, but unless I'm making a documentary or something, I doubt they would tell me their life story or their true motivations for being in the business.
All I'm saying is that I'll never knowfor sure just what their feelings are about their jobs or their lives. Unless I happen to meet and make friends with a stripper or two, therefore being allowed insight into their lives, I don't see how I'll ever even get an honest look at it. If that makes me a "judgmental freak" as one poster said, so be it.
It does. thanks for admitting that. If it makes you feel any better, we're all guilty of that at some point or another. But don't get too upset when it's difficult to argue your point that way.
it certainly does make you a judgmental freak, and, an individual I'm sure most people wouldn't care to be around knowing that you have such strong opinions on things you clearly have no knowledge of whatsoever.
not only that, but you aren't willing to even gain any.
more power to you if you choose to get through life that way; I personally don't understand how anyone would opt for that, but at least you admit it.
Whoooooooo, this got far since I last posted.
I'll step up as someone who knows a few strippers - primarily female, but I've known one or two male in passing. On the range of personality types, I've known strippers who were into orgies and body modification and drugs, to one who eventually went on to learn how to spin fire and works a regular 9-to-5 on the weekdays now after having quit the business.
One's soul. livelihood, self-esteem and life expectations are personal. There are strippers out there who are being hurt and losing faith in themselves/humanity, but that can be applied to postal workers and doctors as well. There are strippers who feel safe and love their job, and that can be applied to office clerks and blacksmiths and firefighters.
We have learned from this that many of you aren't planning to become strippers, or planning to utilize their service. I myself refuse to pay for specialized coffee at Starbucks and would rather make my own.
Life is too short and too interesting to spend time fretting over strangers and the actions of our friends that don't concern us directly. If you think something is bad or wrong, I suggest A) not doing it and B) joining a group of people who don't do it, and start some type of club or political lobby.
Well I have to agree with miss M.
I do love this statement though "every person does have an essence, a core, something that makes them unique. In our society, it seems that uniqueness is the ultimate weakness. "
And you dislike it too. You want these strippers to wake up and stop being uneak!
Last if you want to talk to one put a $20 on the table, buy her a drink at least and say "Hey birl, when you get free explain this to me"
Can I buy you a coffee so I can understand better? You got her for a while.
But in that way, you're still paying her for the service of conversation.
True, but anyway she goes if she offers a coffee she's paying. Even if she takes me to Stabucks to talk she's paying. I promise not to stip only drink the coffee and talk. Lol
You know what's really ironic? What's the name of this topic?
"How do you all feel about strip clubs." That's right. Not, you all should feel the way I do about strip clubs. Or even strip clubs are horrible places that should be shut down!
It's amusing to me that, even though some of this discussion has indeed been productive, some of it has been nothing more than monkeys flinging shit at each other. (And for the record, I do admit I participated in the flinging, in order to defend myself.)
When we get right down to it, most of us here have expressed our opinions, and that's great. That's what I was hoping for and expected. But a couple of you really need to take a step back and ask yourselves a question: is how I feel hurting you? Is it hurting strippers?
Sure, there's always the potential that a stripper could stumble across this topic and get offended by it, but if they did, it would only be a chance for them to explain themselves properly, and I could finally hear something from their perspective. But it's not like I'm saying that strip clubs need to be shut down. I'm not saying that strippers are useless and will never contribute to society. We have the Jersey Shore to fill that void, lol. So, again I ask, is my opinion hurting any of you?
just as you ask whether your opinion is hurting us, I ask you: is how strippers choose to live their life hurting you?
and, for the record, F&R, to those who know people in said profession, your outlook is obviously affecting them.
why? consider the fact they care about these individuals even if just a little, and respect that they have a "I'll do what it takes to get things done" attitude. whereas, you only see the profession in a negative light.
not only that, but you come along and make assumptions based on nothing more than your own willful ignorance, and therefore, can't begin to comprehend why you're being slammed.
and we're the ones doing the unnecessary mud slinging? I don't think so.
I'm not trying to hurt you with my opinion, nor am I actively trying not to. therefore, I honestly don't care whether my opinion is hurting you, nor is your opinion hurting me. But with the assumptions you've been spewing here, I wouldn't be surprised if any strippers who have seen this are hurt by your opinion. Am I being heartless? probably. But this is the internet, and I can't let an online forem get to me, and I can't spend my time wondering whether my posts are hurting others. Now, if this was Safe Haven, or if it was something personal/sensitive, I'd try to be a bit more mindful. But at the end of the day, I'm only responsible for what I post; not how you take it. So if any posts bother you, the only thing that will really make it better is to avoid the topic.
thanks, Jess, for bringing up a point I forgot.
each individual is and should only be responsible for what he/she posts. so, whether I'm replying here, safe haven, or elsewhere, I'm not the least bit concerned with how others view it. in fact, I take the same approach in real life.
I love this. The person who put the post up in the first place is now complaining that she is getting responses. Why did you put the post up in the first place then?
It seems that every board posts dissolves into this lately. Someone puts up an opinion, then is faced with descenting opinions, and then whines about how everyone else is being hateful. They complain, as F&R is doing, that we are over reacting to a post which does not effect us. Well how do our opinions effect you? You could have easily sat back and not put this board post up. You chose not to go that route. Now you don't like the consequences.
The truly funny thing is that the most hateful post, in my opinion, is the original one. How can anything so full of bias, baseless claims, prejudice, biggotry, "holier-than-thou" mentality, self-superiority, and plain and simple idiocy be anything other than hateful? So before you start whining, first realize that this is your fault and you asked for it, and that you are as guilty if not more guilty than the rest of us.
I'm not whining. I'm truly amused that some people have nothing better to do than say stuff like no one wants anything to do with me because I'm hateful. You're right, if I didn't want to hear what anyone had to say I wouldn't have posted. As for opposing opinions, that's not what I'm talking about. Everyone has a right to their opinion, and I'm not stopping that, even if I disagree. What I do disagree with is how some people can take what I say personally when you don't even know my name. That's what bothers me, but hey, this is the internet, and even though it makes me wonder what some of you are like in real life, I wouldn't voice that thought unless the topic really called for it. This one, however, doesn't.
guess we all have different definitions of what constitutes wining, then, cause I wholeheartedly agree with Cody's last post.
No you are correct, I don't know you, but I know your opinion.
Now I'll say you know a little about me from reading my postings. I normally post exactly what I think online and off. If you had that coffee with me and broached this subject I'd tell you exactly the same. The only difference is I'd invite you for a interesting night or day out.
Hateful, you were pretty tough on strippers, but that was okay, it is what you think, however, when others come back it is not hateful it is defending.
Now you said this "I'm not saying that strippers are useless and will never contribute to society."
Seem that is exactly what you said a while back and that caused me to post that story and some information about what strippers, and people that chose to use the body for profit could do after they stopped.
I was reading Playboy today and one of the most wild girls is not an art dealer in a top art gallery in New York. She says that many people go through things when they are 20's hers was just more public due to her job. She was Victoria Secrets, Sports Illistrated, and some other top magazines top model. She was video taped making out with another female model nude, and other things.
She likes to go home and read her books while she sips tea on art now for fun. She's 29 so says she's getting old for the modeling world. Don't know if she's given up her sexual freedom feelings, but she'll not be public with it anymore.
Last you are doing fine posting your opinion, but your not willing to agree that you know nothing about it, but post facts about strippers as if it was the absolute case. I, for one, am inviting you to see the other side.
I, too, would tell you the same thing in real life. I'm no different offline than I am online; some embrace it as I do, while others don't (and that's perfectly okay).
One point that Cody and others have been repeatedly bringing up that you just cannot seem to grasp is that if you post something, you will get responses; some you will like, some you won't care about, and others you will flat out dislike. But there are others who will like the ones you dislike, and others who will dislike the posts you like. Nobody will ever be happy with every other post. If you disagree with this, you're not going to have a very good time on these boards. if you agree with this, then I suggest you stop complaining about the posts you don't like.
No, I don't know you, other than what you have chosen to put forth on these boards. as I'm sure you recall, there are other topics where the very people who disagree with you here were in agreement with you. If I agree with you on a topic, would you respond with complaints about how little I know you? somehow I doubt it.